Many people have heard, from reliable sources, that Hillary Rodham Clinton was the "brains" behind Waco after it all began, and that it was escalated into pure murder by her machinations, and with the assistance of Vincent Foster and Webster Hubbell.

If that is true, then the Japanese government is in possession of the documents and perhaps of the conversations themselves, as conducted by Foster, Hubbell and Hillary R. Clinton.

The following excerpts were edited from the interviews conducted with Debra Von Trapp, by leaders of the Michigan militia, late in April of 1995: in these discussions, it is clearly established that FBI agent Robert Goetzman and his team of Bush-era renegades had the contacts, the leverage, the security clearances -- and especially the motivation -- necessary to accomplish their goals, which were definitely to surveil the Clinton Administration and the D.C. government, and to down-load their E-mail by "trap doors" in their new document-handling software. The plan was brilliant.

It is thus entirely plausible to believe that these men had the contacts and the wherewithal necessary to plan the Oklahoma City bombing, on behalf of their Japanese clients, or simply to silence the suborned Secret Service agent, Alan G. Whicher. It is up to others to discern how many layers of camouflage and "fluff" were laid down to obscure the connections that these men had with secret military or para-military units which might have had their own reasons for hitting back at the Clinton government.

The idea that Tim McVeigh, on his own, could concoct such a plot is laughable in the extreme: if he did that, if he was that cruel and that 'good' at bomb-making, why did he just surrender when he was confronted by a lone trooper? Having just killed 169 people (but no ATF agents), he decides to be merciful to a man who can terminate his get-away plans? He has money and weapons, training and a great motive to kill in cold blood.

But he surrenders, instead, almost without a squawk.

What is wrong with that picture?

Von Trapp's excerpts begin:

"[Robert] Goetzman, when Bush lost the election, was in fact, in charge of a very widespread network project in the U.S., that Bush had authorized the funding for, that was all an intelligence operation to standardize communications on a number of what were, I guess, mismatched technology installations.

"So Bush had Goetzman in charge of standardizing all of the software and communications equipment on all of these networks across the country ... there was a tremendous amount of money involved in this. I mean, for a government employee, Goetzman had virtual autonomy -- he travelled and wherever he went, he wore $1200 suits every day."

"This wasn't a government employee operating on a usual budget!"

"In '92, he had approached me and had shown me a lot of this plan for the standardized network -- the ultimate goal of all of that technology was to assist the government in massive surveillance projects and being able to share information on the public. That is the goal of all those network installations.

"This was a lot of CIA money -- which is non-accountable to the public ... that was being transferred over to Goetzman and the people working under him, namely Peter Stanley out of Canton, Ohio, who operates a front company called Valcomm, and Peter is the person that Goetzman arranged to have Hillary's first purchase order issued to, when she purchased a Macintosh, as soon as they [the Clintons] took office. That was Hillary's first purchase .... Jim Cofield [spelling?] was part of a number of intelligence personnel that were opeating a front company in Washington D.C., alled K Jax Engineering [spelling?].

"Now allegedly, K Jax is what they call an 8-A firm, and 8-a firms are companies that are supposed to be full of minority workers that are given the "set asides" on federal contracts, that are mandated by law. It always seemed to be arranged that every time it was a 'pet project' for Bush or Goetzman, ironically enough, K Jax Engineering got the job!"

"A man named Paul Steele was aboard at the White House during the Bush Administration, but I haven't been able to confirm what his capacity was, or his actual title -- he had much the same autonomy as Robert Goetzman did -- and when Bush lost the election, he arranged to be sent over to become the Director of Purchasing for the District of Columbia. And the purpose behind that -- was to insure that when they started that surveillance project on Clinton -- that Goetzman would have control of the purchase orders that were issued out of the Executive Office, because of a person that was left behind, that was part of their team, named Dale Helm ... he's the head of purchasing for Office Administration for the White House. And he's been there a long time. All through all of the last twelve years that I am aware of.

"So Helm was left behind to be able to work with Goetzman on getting the purchase orders issued. And -- the Clinton Administration, the people that came in, were completely inexperienced politically, had absolutely no idea what they were doing .... They were looking to people for direction. The Office Administration and certain people that still surrounded the Executive Office as far as White House Communications were still there and part of the Bush-Goetzman-Helm/CIA team.

"So Clinton being trusting, [he] simply continued all of that hierarchy that was in place ... looked to them to help them get all the equipment they needed to get into their own offices.

"And then Clinton created 'the new Executive Office,' and thought that he was doing something different! And virtually, he was still there with all the same people, so all they did was ... they may have moved him over to another part of the building, but he accomplished nothing in terms of any secure communications or being able to change anything or protect himself from anything. The Office Administration staff was still there. And he viewed them as 'just government employees,' when in fact, they were all CIA personnel that had been in place for a very long time, and were left behind still supporting Bush and the CIA. So they issued the purchase orders to Goetzman, and then gave Goetzman, Peter Stanley, Jim Cofield, and a senior CIA employee named Wes Thomas access to the offices!

"So they virtually had their run of the place!

"And then Paul Steele was over as head of purchasing for the District of Columbia, and had 'last signature authority' on anything anybody wanted to do in the District, including the Police Department. So he went around suggesting that he was negotiating special deals, and had some special people that the could put them in contact with, to, get all kinds of new equipment that would assist the new administration, and they were really, the Democrats were going to come in and really help out the District of Columbia, and the whole thing was a ruse!

"Because Goetzman, Cofield, Thomas and Stanley were the only people that Steele was sending in to the District of Columbia offices, including the Police Department, to obtain purchase orders and get equipment!

"Goetzman was running a front company, now remember, he was a federal employee -- he was not supposed to have a second job, he was not supposed to be paid by the federal government on any contract, it's a conflict. He was running a front company out of Ohio called Systems Support and then he also had a corporation out of New York .. and it was called Systems Support Limited. And Cofield had K Jax and Wes Thomas had Thomas Associates out of New York City.

"So they were taking their front companies, obtaining purchase orders from the government, but ironically, even the Executive Office purchase order was rigged. As the owner of his front company in Ohio, he was paid full list price [not from the GSA schedule for software, at a 30% discount] for the products he installed at the Executive Office!

Von Trapp goes on to relate how Goetzman was able to take an upgrade of Word Perfect 5.2, as approved by Dale Helm, into the White House and install it in their offices. He then removed, unlawfully, one hundred copies of a lower version of Word Perfect and hand-delivered them to the Management Information Services director of the Democratic National Committee, while swindling her into believing she was getting new software at an incredibly attractive price! So by this and other mechanisms, the Goetzman-Stanley intelligence team put the White House, the D.N.C. and the metropolitan government of the District of Columbia on the same versions of Word Perfect, and with "trap doors" and suborned machinery included in the mixture!

"When they were tring to create this surveillance network between the DC and the DNC and the WH they were doing it based on WP 5.2 vor a coupoe of reasons ... not the least of wqhich was that -- once you surveil all of these offices and these pieces of equipment and are able to access all the data that has been created on a daily baisis and actually pull it out of the offices and assemble it on to whatever ... data base you are using at some remote location, you have second problem -- the files could be non-compatible." Word Perfect solved that problem for the Goetzman team.

"The company that was really responsible for this software, was Novell, which purchased Word Perfect during this transition phase in '92 and '93. Novell was ... all staffed with intelligence agents, a core group of people in the organization.

"The Japanese operate two organizations in this country that are very well-received by the public ... but were in fact funnelling the money to Goetzman and his associates after Bush lost the election. Those two companies were MCA-Universal (Universal Studios in California), and Mitsubishi .... These two companies were funding this [espionage] effort through the Embassy of Japan in Washington, to pay this team, that I have described as 'the disaffected,' ... the gravy train had ended, they didn't have all these secret projects ... they didn't have the source of all the additional monies that caused them to live this incredibly high life style. And to insure their futures.

"He was in a perfect situation for the Japanese to approach him, and this team then reported into the Embassy -- they were actually walking in and holding meetings at the Embassy, undetected. [They] were then participating in this plan from the time of the election all the way up to the Inaugural, this agreement put in place to be able to ... on behalf of the Japanese government ... to go ahead and conduct this surveillance on behalf of the Japanese.

"The Japanese had not only the advantage of gaining all the information they possibly needed on what Clinotn and his administraiotn were doing .. they had complete access to all the information being generated inside the District of Colubmia, but moreover, they had access to military information!

"Everything that would possibly be the spoken or written word that was being electronically or telephonically dealt with inside that building ... was accessible. They had complete access.

"The Japanese were actually in control of all the information that was being generated out of the White House, at its highest level and its most secure level. The implications are staggering." These rogue agents were paid by MCA-Universal.

"Robert Goetzman was carrying MCA-Universal business cards ... that he was passing out at the COMDEX computer trade shows, to executives in the computer industry!

"Goetzman simply went out of control."