Hi Ben,

This is my first post on this Forum. I have been reading Rumor Mill for almost a year now, but I have never felt compelled to write anything on it until now. Actually, I wrote part of this last week in response to another one of you posts, but I thought better of it and did not post it at that time.

However, this last post of yours has made me finally gather up my courage and post on this Forum for the first time.

Ben, if a Jew can't stand up to Rogue Butterfly and Mark Seeley without demanding that they be censored, then you are pointing all of us to a Police State with you as the chief enforcer.

In this post I would like to mention a number of the things you have posted on this Forum. In one post you defended the Rabbis who wrote the Talmud. Forgive me if I have misunderstood something you have written but...

it seems to me that you are using the same logic to defend the Talmud that you use to condemn Rogue Butterfly.

Can you please explain to me why it is okay for Rabbis in the days the Talmud was put together, to duscuss issues in an open forum and include dissenting arguments, unpopular beliefs and "...comments... that are off-color, insensitive, or just plain stupid"-- to use your own words -- and on the other hand, YOU advocate banning Rogue Butterfly and others from this Forum. Can you see how your positions condridict each other?

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. I do not own a Talmud, I cannot confirm or deny that the Talmud says these things, however, you have not denied that it does say these things, so I must conclude that the Talmud does state the things Rogue Butterfly says it states. If so, I am as shocked and horrified, as is Rogue Butterfly.

You stated there were Rabbis that were as shocked as I am, and if these Rabbis wrote their shock and horror, then these Rabbis have served the same purpose, in their day that you and others are serving today in regards to the Rumor Mill News Forum. In other words, it appears as if ancient Judaism was much more tolerant than today's Jews, if you are an example. But then again, maybe you aren't even Jewish. Maybe you are just a trouble maker. It appears the Jews who put together the Talmud allowed everyone, including the perverts to have their say. If you really are a Jew, would you have allowed the part about having sex with children to be put into the Talmud? Would you have censored it as you are trying to censor this free speech form.

What you are doing is making everyone believe that in today's world, anyone who criticizes anything Jewish is labeled an antisemite. By your own actions you are making Rogue Butterfly more credible.

If Rogue Butterfly has quoted the Talmud inaccurately, then you need to bring in a Rabbi who can explain this to us. If these quotes are indeed in the Talmud, then it is the responsibility of every Jew, if you are Jew, then this responsibility falls on your shouldars... to look into this and either explain it fully or condemn it. You need to convene a synod to investigate, determine the meaning, and then fully explain what the Talmud means when it calls all non Jewish people "cattle" and says it is all right to rape, murder and cheat them. If Roge Butterfly has stated these things wrong, then you need to take it upon yourself to fully explain it. Don't you understand your own Tulmud enough to be able to defend it from someone like Rogue Butterfly. If the Synod discovers that at one time there were Jews who believed these things, then those things should be disavowed or condemned and deleted from the Talmud. Maybe it is time for Jews to look at who has been a Jew in the past.

There are many Catholic Priests who are pedophiles. When they are discovered they are condemned and the practice of pedophilia is not condoned by the Catholic church even though many high ranking Catholic priests are pedophiles. Perversions exist in all religions and groups. If perverts infiltrated the Jewish faith during the middle ages, then Jews should admit that there are Jews who are or were perverts who were part of their religion. The Catholics have admitted this. Why can't Jews admit this?

Having sex with children is not something that most adults will ever condone. If this is part of the Talmud, then it is up to you and other Jews to look into this and correct it. If you don't, it will be used against you forever.

If you have a group of people within your ranks who are bringing shame to the rest of you -- no matter how old or sacred these people are -- they need to be evicted like the infected sore they are. The Catholics are beginning to do it. Why can't you?

Again -- if I misunderstood your earlier articles, please forgive me and correct my thinking. I am not anti-semetic. Until I started reading Rogue Butterfly I had never given the Jewish question much thought one way or another. I am one of the people who has always believed they were the victims.

As I read the newspapers and see what is happening in the middle east, I begin to wonder if the victims of Hitler and now more like Hitler than their forefathers who were his victims.

Bill Fuller

ps My wife just read this and said she does't think Ben is your first name. She says she thinks that is a title. If it is, then I apologize. Most Christians know nothing about the Jewish faith. Ben, if you really are a Jew and not someone who is just coming in here to cause problems, then why don't you teach us what YOU know about Jews? Most people who read and post on this forum seem to have open minds. We are not anti semetic and this Forum is not an Aryan Hate Forum --

My wife says she think you are an ADL plant who is trying to get this webpage labeled a "hate webpage". Before we read your replies to Rogue Butterfly, we both dimissed her as a well educated crank. Now we have decided that we need to explore what she has said further.

What you have succeeded in doing is drawing attention to her and making two more people interested in getting at the truth. The more people like you call for censorship of groups and forums like this, the more people like me and my wife will start to explore the things Rogue Butterfly is saying.

Posted earlier by Ben
: Lest some gullible person believe this nonsense, I feel
: compelled to reply.

: The Talmud does indeed mention some of the things referred to
: in RogueButterfly's post. However, it is important to
: understand how they are presented and the context, which is
: a difficult task even for learned Jews, never mind
: ignoramuses like RogueButterfly.

: Much of the Talmud is a written record of debates and
: discussions between Rabbis. As in any other
: emotionally-charged forum, there are bound to be some
: comments made that are off-color, insensitive, or just
: plain stupid.

: Ever read the Congressional Record? Just because someone makes
: a comment during a debate, fortunately does not mean that
: it becomes law.

: Let's face it, every religion has its share of assholes.
: Judaism has them, Islam has them, and Christianity has them
: (e.g., RogueButterfly).

: The Talmud is intended to be a comprehensive record of the
: debates in order to demonstrate and allow us to learn from
: the thought processes and variety of opinions that
: contribute to the ultimate legal conclusion. Like a
: judicial verdict, there are often dissenting opinions, but
: the law generally reflects a sound and socially responsible
: approach.

: The final legal decisions are sometimes not even specified in
: the Talmud itself and were evaluated and codified by later
: Rabbinic commentaries and authorities. For example, one
: would see that the commentary to this debate record, Rashi
: (which appears in the border of Talmud publications),
: clearly denounces and refutes the statements included in
: your post, and specifies that they do not reflect the
: codified law.

: Let this be perfectly clear: Jewish law does not hold that any
: of your out-of-context excerpts are indeed law, and no Jew
: follows them as law.

: But of course, this won't deter inciters like Jana Janus, aka
: RogueButterfly. Her rantings will continue, fueled by the
: hatred posted on aryan and nazi websites, where her
: "quotes" came directly from.

: It's a tired old ploy that fools very few people, thank G-d.

: I've noticed that this forum has taken on an increasingly
: anti-Jewish tone--one more appropriate for a white
: supremacist website than a conspiracy forum.

: I wonder how long it will take for Rayelan to decide that
: certain "attack" messages do not contribute to
: the prime directive, and have no redeeming value
: whatsoever.

: I also noticed that someone replied to Herr Hannibal with an
: anti-Christian message. I wonder if that will be
: selectively censored?