: Nem: Is it not true that YOU seek pleasure, and try to avoid
: pain? Folks who seek pain, is that not their pleasure?

Pleasure and pain are the extremes of sensory input, not the be all end all of choice making goals.

: It is man's nature (program) to seek pleasure and avoid pain.
: It is so obvious, so self-evident, and the very reason we
: try to control (create) an environment to obtain it, thus
: "we have control" over our lives to the degree
: available.

A carpenter seeks to build a house, and would most likely not want to hit his thumb in the process, but it has happened, and was painful, but seeking pleasure and avoiding pain is not the main operating guide (program), it is one of many desires/ideas. Likewise if everyone was operating on a princess-and-the-pea program, we would have never gotten this far along.

: Nem: We ARE FREE to do as we PLEASE (at the price of

: consequences)...pleasing our selves IS our WILL'S
: motivator.

Desire is ultimately for the expression of idea, not just pleasure, or pain.

: Nem: How did you come to THAT conclusion? Just because we seek
: pleasure and try to avoid pain, does not suggest
: pre-planning, nor that "everything is programmed
: already", or "planned" (except, of course,
: our program/nature to desire to experience pleasure and
: avoid pain).

Your first statement was:

"HUMANS HAVE PROGRAMMED-WILL (not free-will)

Is a will that is programmed, FREE? It certainly isn’t FREE if it is programmed.

Humans do not have free-will. Humans have programmed-will.

Is it not true that the human-will seeks to please itself, that it seeks happiness, joy and pleasure. Is this not a program? "

Programmed-Will, defined with a pleasure seeking program, and our previous discussions about non-free-will, forms a pattern that defines a limitation of will. A limitation of will by a program leaves one with a defined set of experiences, like a specific path. A specific route. That is a plan. You then go on to limit the programming to only pleasure seeking. I can see how you would think this is only a small parameter, but go back to the idea of the princess and the pea, and evolution of consciousness would be limited.

: Nem: A program (our desire) seeks an effect. It is the program
: (seek pleasure, avoid pain) that inspires us to act, thus
: the program "precedes" the act.

Mind is the source of inspiration, and its previous manifestations provide secondary sources of inspiration. To say that anticipation of pleasure is the main motivator for all expression is very limiting for future expression, and doesn't account for all that each of us have created thus far.

: If desire

: Nem: Desire changes as knowledge and understanding increases,
: but the program (seek pleasure avoid pain) does not.

What happens when consciousness evolves beyond the body? Is pleasure still sought after? Is fear of pain still existent? What happens when a father stands in the way of harm to his wife or daughter? You could say his newest pleasure is the safety of his wife or daughter. You could say the superficial desire for pleasure over pain has been temporarily overridden, but then is it still a main program at that point?

: Nem: There are 41 plus definitions for the word
: "Free". I use it as meaning "no
: restraint", "no program". But since our
: program and nature is to seek pleasure and avoid pain, we
: are not free in that context.

So then how can the husband/father override that program?

: Nem: As to the rest of what you wrote... "perhaps".
: nem.

Thanks for this discussion..