(from Barry Chamish - posted at Rayelan's request)

AMIR INTERROGATION TAPE UNCOVERED by Barry Chamish

Three evenings ago, I gave a lecture on the Rabin
assassination in Netanya. Once the presentation was completed,
a handsome woman named Rachel Friedman approached me. "My
sister, brother-in-law and their three children were murdered
in the pizzeria explosion in Jerusalem," she said. "The very
last thing I said to my brother-in-law was that I'm coming
tonight to hear you. And the last thing he told me was, 'The
violence against us is being run by the same people who

started the Holocaust. Maybe Rabin's murder will lead us to
them.' He was from Holland and knew things Israelis don't. He
was blown up a few moments later.

"I told Israeli tv news what he said and it was censored. The
big story the next day was about an Arab killed in a
retaliatory action. My family was almost wiped out and Sharon
knocked down a few buildings in their memory. And the media
thought an Arab killed in one of the buildings was more
important than my brother-in-law's last thoughts." Yesterday,
five more Israelis were murdered. A husband and wife were slain
before their infant children on the Modiin-Jerusalem road, a
mile from my home. And Sharon knocked down some buildings to
commemorate the slayings. Meanwhile, he is sending Peres to
Germany to arrange the continuation of the slaughter until the
NATO troops take over the region.

If you want to know what Israel is in for tomorrow, watch
Macedonia today. It's the same plan. The New World Order
leaders arm a gang of Moslem dissidents and they murder and
maim and massacre until the world army comes in to douse the
flames its commanders lit in the first place. Arafat is just
doing what he's told, like any good dissident Moslem leader. I
told Rachel that her brother-in-law's last words were pure truth
from G-d's heart to his mouth. I added that for years I've been
saying the only way to save our people is by exposing the Rabin
assassination. The truth will lead from Gillon to Peres to
those Europeans enflaming our region. Of all the innumerable
crimes against the Jews since the Oslo Accord, the only one
Israelis will never forget is Rabin's murder. It is the key to
our salvation.

Two days later I received the most dramatic piece of
evidence seen in years. A dogged writer, well known and
oft-seen on Israeli television, phoned me and insisted we meet.
He drove to my home with his wife. He brought a tape with him
as well as vital information we had both been seeking for
years.

For those who follow my writing, recall the article
They're Talking, in which two Shabak agents informed me of
some of their service branch's most hidden secrets. I was
informed that one of Rabin's bodyguards, named Tzvi, was
murdered on the assassination night and buried quickly in
Jerusalem. Until then I knew the name of another Shabak officer
murdered in the aftermath of the Rabin assassination. It was
Yoav Kuriel and he was buried in a closed ceremony ten days
later. I asked the informers to give Tzvi's last name but they
couldn't or wouldn't recall it.

My guest helped me out: "The bodyguard's name was Tzvi
Forster. He was buried by an undertaker named Friedman in
Givat Shaul Cemetary in Jerusalem."

Then he offered to show me three films he had acquired.
They were the police interrogations of Amir. "And not the
phoney-baloney staged interrogation they showed on Channel Two
last year; The real ones."

I will transcribe all three interrogations in time, but
let us begin with the interrogation of Yigal Amir on Dec.
3/95. Earlier that day Amir had a hearing, covered by the
media. He entered the courtroom and yelled to the cameras and
over a million people watching, "Why aren't you investigating
Rabin's murdered bodyguard? The people will forgive me when
they know the background. After you understand why, you'll see
the whole system is rotten. Everything you see is fabricated. I
didn't think they'd start killing people."

Then at his hearing, he told Judge Dan Arbel, "They're
killing people, it's all a lie."

"What's a lie?" asked Arbel.

"That I killed Rabin," answered Amir. "I didn't even try to
kill him. What you've seen up til now has been a facade. I
request to be allowed to explain the background to my actions.
They're killing people. If you listen to the truth, the whole
country will be up in arms."

Needless to say, Judge Arbel did not give Amir a chance to
explain himself and he was taken back to his lockup. The
following interrogation took place later that nearly fateful
day when Amir was about to tell the court the truth. The
interrogators are two nervous, almost desperate policemen Yoav
Gazit and Ofir Gamliel.

While reading the transcript, never forget that the
Israeli media has spread a lie that Amir confessed to the
murder to the police and that's all. This transcript proves
that was not the case. Amir still wants to tell the truth but,
clearly, he doesn't trust the intentions of the interrogators.

A decision was made to present the whole interrogation
transcript. While that will slow and greatly lengthen the
reading and often confuse the reader, the main consideration
is authenticity, both of the atmosphere of the interrogation
and the fact that I have acquired such damning evidence.

To reduce confusion, I will add commentary beginning and
ending with three stars ***.

447/95 Serious Crimes Division, Israel Police; Transcript
of conversation of 3/12/95 between the murder suspect of Prime
Minister Rabin, Yigal Amir, and two investigators, Sergeant
Ofir Gamliel and Inspector

Yoav Gazit.

Gazit: Let's finish the investigation. Let's clean up the whole story.

Amir: I gave you the phone so give it back.

Gazit: Here it is. This is the starting point. As soon as things
are cleared up you can meet your parents. I want to start with
a point you made and, look, I'm not writing anything down. You
can talk freely. I want to nail down an issue you stated in
Yoni's report...

***Officer Yoni Hirshorn was Amir's first interrogator."***

Gazit: Everyone heard what you said in the courtroom today. I
want to know what you meant by it. I'm hearing bits and pieces
in the media but don't have the true picture. I asked Yoni to
write a summary of your claims. Tell me what you meant by
them. Were they real or not?

Amir: Now I'll talk.

Gazit: You said that what we've seen so far has been a facade
and you asked the court to let you explain the background to
your actions. 'They're killing people, if you listen to the
truth there will be a revolution in the country,' you said.
Wasn't that a bit bombastic?

Amir: They didn't let me tell what I could have.

Gazit: So tell me, I won't write anything down, what did you
mean? Is it a theory or not? I don't know.

Amir: They're killing people. I heard about the dead bodyguard
from my lawyer and from my interrogators.

***The Shabak agent, Yoav Kuriel was buried two weeks before and
there were publicized suspicions of foul play. In the end. the
police and media insisted that he committed suicide because he
was depressed about the Rabin murder. Within a year, I spoke
with one of Kuriel's burial team. He informed me that Kuriel
had seven bullets in his chest. A persistent suicide it was.
When Amir shouted to the cameras that the media was covering up
the murder of a bodyguard, he reopened the wound and the police
wanted to determine what he knows. Amir answers that his lawyer
and other policemen told him about Kuriel. Gazit sees this
line is going nowhere so far and switches topics.***

Gazit: Tell me briefly what you know about Itamar Ben Gvir.

Amir: That's what I heard in the bus, that he was going to
murder the prime minister.

Gazit: Did you meet him personally?

Amir: No.

Gazit: Itamar was the one who put the sticker on the prime
minister's car. He's an extremist. Did you ever meet him?

Amir: No, I just saw him.

***Itamar Ben Gvir is a highly publicized member of Kach. There
are widespread suspicions that he is a Shabak agent. What
fueled said suspicions amongst many people was an incident a
few years back when he threatened to murder Sinead O'Connor and
her band if they showed up for their scheduled Jerusalem
performance. The show was cancelled, leading to great
resentment among the country's Left and youth towards right wing
settlers like Ben Gvir. And what was Ben Gvir's punishment for
his death threats? Nothing. He wasn't even questioned by the
police. A month before Rabin's murder, Ben Gvir put a sticker
on his car reading, 'We got to Rabin's car, next we'll get to
him." Amir is claiming he heard a rumor on a bus that Ben Gvir
was planning to murder Rabin that night. The plot thickens.***

Gazit: Ben Gvir is in Kach. And the one who told you about him
was a Likud Youth member from Raanana.

Amir: I don't want to say.

Gazit: You already said it. What you mean is you don't want to
say who he was. You gave him a first name and I don't even
remember it. Fine, you heard a theory and your lawyer told you
a bodyguard was dead too. So what's your take on all this?
Briefly, what do you make of it all? If you don't feel like
answering, that's fine with me too.

Amir: Do you swear?

Gazit: Enough already.

Amir: Alright.

Gazit: I just want to clear up what you said, what is true and
what isn't.

Amir: Aaah.

Gazit: Nu, tell me already, briefly.

Amir: I'll tell.

Gazit: What did you mean when you were so bombastic in court.

Amir: I had to be. They wouldn't let me talk.

Gazit: Who knows what they thought.

Amir: I don't care.

Gazit: I am speaking as your investigator and I don't understand
my case. I have to follow up on things said in the media and
the courtroom and I don't get it.

Amir: You're my investigator, not my father.

Gazit: That depends. I never said I was your father and you
don't have to confide in me. I never asked for names of
people.

Amir: You'll hear me in court.

Gazit: I'll tell you, from what you said in court this morning I
can surmise that you think one of the bodyguards died, true?

Amir: Yes.

Gazit: You said an attorney told you? Who is he? What's his name?

Amir: The one who came to me.

Gazit: That's not enough and you know it. We're not children
here. I want to know where you heard this theory. See, I'm not
writing down a word.

Amir: It was nothing. I just threw out some theories.

Gazit: That's not what you said before.

Amir: Okay.

Gazit: I spoke with your brother before you as you saw. I asked
what you meant in court today.

Amir: You'll both know later in court.

Gazit: You said you were on a bus to the rally, right. There was
a guy...

Amir: I won't give his name. He told me that Itamar Ben Gvir was
going to murder Rabin.

Gazit. You said you were told Ben Gvir intended to murder Rabin?

Amir: Yes.

Gazit: And you said you heard from people that Avishai Raviv was
a Shabak agent. And that Avishai is friends with Itamar Ben
Gvir, true? That's what you said and now you're being
wishy-washy. Are you finished with your words?

Amir: Yes.

***Amir connects Avishai Raviv to the Rabin murder. He,
correctly identifies him as a Shabak agent. He connects Ben
Gvir to Raviv and implies that he was a Shabak agent as well.
And he insists that word was out that Ben Gvir was out to
murder Rabin that night. Far from confessing to Rabin's
murder, Amir is trying to make sense of it. He has obviously
drawn some strong conclusions from the knowledge he possesses.
Now look at the implications of Amir's conclusions.***

Gazit: I can see you're tired. Stretch out while I carry on. Now
tell me, true or not, is this what you believe? The top ranks
of government, specifically Rabin and Peres, planned a fake
assassination by a right winger after the rally and that Ben
Gvir was supposed to be the shooter? Yes or no?

Amir: Yes, yes.

***How do like them apples? Amir sorted out the plot, at least
the fake assassination part and the blame shifted to a right
wing religious shooter. Note that he includes Peres in the
plan, a fact that also has turned out to be proven. No, Amir
is not confessing to murder, he's caught on to what happened.
Still, it must be noted, there has been no subsequent proof of
his charges against Ben Gvir.***

Gazit: I need us to clear all this up. Other than that, I don't
need anything.

Amir: Then I didn't mean it.

Gazit: Then what did you mean?

Amir: I said this, I said that, I wasn't thinking straight.

Gazit: You said that Itamar Ben Gvir was supposed to arrive, um,
with a gun full of blank bullets that Avishai Raviv gave him.
True? That's what you said.

***Amir told Hirshorn, his previous interrogator that Avishai
Raviv supplied Ben Gvir with a gun loaded with blanks. But, the
truth is that Raviv must have handed Amir that gun. We know
this because we have a picture of Raviv holding a Baretta. The
serial number, blown up, was the same as that of the gun Amir
allegedly used to shoot Rabin dead. We know it because, a
minute after Rabin's shooting, forty minutes before anyone ever
heard of Amir, Raviv told reporter Amir Gilat and numerous
members of his phoney radical group Eyal, that Amir did the
shooting. He knew before anyone else because he supplied the
gun to him. So why is Amir claiming Raviv also supplied a gun
with blanks to Ben Gvir. Was he also set up to be a patsy, or
a backup to Amir? Or perhaps Amir is making the story up to get
the police to look into Raviv. Whatever his motive, Amir has
realized that he shot blanks at Rabin.***

Amir: It was just a story. I threw it out as a possibility.
Maybe Avishai isn't what I thought in the courtroom.

Gazit: No. You said what you said, also about the Kahalani
brothers, that they switched bullets or rigged their weapons.
Where did you get that idea?

***Amir is right again.Two months before Rabin's murder, Two
brothers Eitan and Yehodidya Kahalani were arrested by the
Shabak and charged with planning to massacre Arabs. The Shabak
claimed they had tampered with the two M-16s, making them
inoperable. In October 1999, I addressed 400 political bigwigs
including four Knesset members at a forum in a Herzlia hotel. I
told the gathered that I had the reports from the police
ballistics lab. The two M-16s were in the lab the night before
they were planted, not in the Kahalanis' car but in a car
borrowed from a Shabak snitch named Yves Tibi. Two months
later, the Kahalani brothers were quietly released from prison.
And no one thanked me. Amir is absolutely right about the
frameup of the Kahalanis. How did he know? No one suspected
the Shabak of such a thing until the tactics of the Rabin
assassination and Raviv were exposed much later. Amir has more
than a gut feeling about how he was set up. Now look at him
describe the plot perfectly.***

Gazit: No! You said it. You said they rigged their rifles.

Amir: I tell the police one thing because they lead me in
certain directions and it's not what I intend to tell the
court.

Gazit: I'm asking if your version is just a theory. Your claim
is that the top echelons of government staged a fake
assassination to strengthen their hold on government by
blaming a right wing shooter who really shot blank bullets. In
the end, the intended shooter didn't shoot, but you did.

Amir: True.

Gazit: And to further the plot, Rabin's bodyguards cleared a
path for the shooter to Rabin?

Amir: That's why the bodyguards shouted that the bullets were blanks.

***Bingo. Amir's got it. He worked out the plan and it seems
that Gazit suspects he may be right. The problem is the
addition of Ben Gvir. Why add him? Why doesn't Amir just say
that Raviv gave him the gun with the blanks, since that is
most probably the truth?***

Gazit: So it was supposed to be Ben Gvir. No, let's not mention
names. Wait, Ophir (Gamliel) is coming. (A second policeman
enters the room). Ophir, he thinks I don't understand him, what
he's getting to.

Amir: That's it.

Gamliel: Listen.

Gazit: Talk to Ophir.

Gamliel: You spoke about a facade.

Gazit: Ophir wants to hear. That's why I brought him.

***Like he wasn't watching the whole thing through a two way
mirror.***

Gamliel: You brought up other people.

Amir: I've said nothing. They didn't let me talk to the court or
the reporters.

Gamliel: No, I meant here.

Amir: I asked you to let me talk.

Gamliel: Nu, talk!

Amir: You're not letting me.

Gamliel: Talk, let's hear.

Amir: It's too late.

Gazit: What's the story?

Amir: Wait until my trial.

Gamliel: The court will ask that the police testify to what you
told us. You can't say we're not giving you every opportunity
to explain yourself.

Amir: I don't want to say.

Gamliel: You don't want to say but we know what you want to say.
We know your story.

Amir: It's not a story.

***Gamliel is finally turning into the bad cop but the strategy
fails. Amir will lose whatever slight trust he had established
with Gazit as soon as Gamliel turns up the heat and the
lies.***

Gamliel: You said there was a Shabak conspiracy and you
accidentally walked into the middle of it. You said the
bodyguards shouted, ' They're blanks.' Do you know which ones?

Amir: I told you why they shouted, 'Blanks.'

Gamliel: And what do you base this theory on?

Amir: Nothing. It was just a theory. Take it or leave it.

Gamliel: So what's the theory? I don't understand it.

Amir: One of the bodyguards is dead.

Gazit: No.

Gamliel: Who told you such a thing?

Amir: Just people.

Gamliel: No one is dead. Now let's listen to your theory.

Gazit: Your theory is based on a dead bodyguard, murdered to
keep silent.

Amir: He asked what I thought.

Gamliel: If I tell you there is no dead bodyguard, then your
whole theory collapses.

Amir: Yes.

Gamliel: That's what I'm telling you.

***And is Gamliel ever wrong. Yoav Kuriel was buried on the 15th
of November in HaYarkon Cemetary: His plot can be visited at
bloc 13, region 5, row 57, number 20. Amir is right, but
underestimated the situation. Another bodyguard named Tzvi
Forster was murdered and buried ten days before Kuriel.
Gamliel's game is to lie to Amir and force him to abandon his
line of defense.***

Amir: Really?

Gamliel: Your line is that the Shabak murdered him to shut him
up. That's what you meant to say.

Amir: Maybe.

Gamliel: Did you say that here?

Amir: That's what I said.

Gamliel: Who is Benny Birtz?

Amir: Just someone.

Gazit: He told me the one who stuck the sticker on Rabin's car
was there. He saw him on television.

Gamliel: Wait a second, you told me it's all connected and the
shouts of, 'Blanks,' connects everything together.

Gazit: Suddenly he's very mysterious.

Gamliel: You don't want to talk to us.

Amir: Okay, I'll talk.

Gamliel: Then talk already.

(Amir's response missing from film).

Gazit: So nothing is true. It's all based on a story someone
told you about a dead bodyguard.

Amir: As well.

Gazit: And you mixed the Kahalani story into your salad so
everything would fit together. So, say something.

Amir: There's no need. This isn't a detective novel.

Gamliel: If the bodyguards were involved, tell me how and I'll
investigate.

Amir: Does it seem right to you that...

Gamliel: So you're not so sure what's right, are you?

Amir: You said you'd investigate. If you're so sure then you
won't, will you?

Gamliel: There's nothing to investigate. No one is dead.
Everyone is alive.

Amir: Fine, if everyone's alive...And your story is truthful.

Gamliel: Now listen. You've just been guessing all along,
haven't you? If not, tell us something you know for sure. Up
til now you've been very frank with us. There's no reason to
hide anything more.

Gazit: I don't understand your problem. We'll investigate
whatever needs to be investigated. You explain yourself well.
Say what it is you want to say.

***Amir received information about Kuriel's murder from a
trusted source, one of his lawyers. His attorneys were in a
position to know and, from first hand experience I know, they
were privy to profoundly disturbing information. Amir will not
name which lawyer (at the time he had two lawyers and their
partners working on his defense) and the two interrogators are
becoming increasingly frustrated. They want to know who knows
about Kuriel and Amir isn't budging. Their tactic is to
investigate nothing for him until he spills the beans on his
informants. In time, they will try to track down the Likud
youth who informed him about Ben Gvir. But Amir will prove to
be as suspicious of their true motives and as stubborn not to
turn into a stool-pigeon.***

Gamliel: It is the truth.

Gazit: I'm telling you, no one was killed.

Amir: So what, we'll see.

Gazit: So where did you get the story from? From who exactly?
You can't really say you're basing your suspicions on hard
facts.

Amir: Not this question.

Gamliel: So why is it one day you say at full volume that you
did it, that you were alone and now you're inventing a
conspiracy?

Amir: That's the situation. It's all been a facade.

Gazit: A facade by whom? Who wore the mask?

Amir: I can't say anything.

Gamliel: You can't or won't say? Because you weave conspiracies.

Amir: Okay.

Gamliel: Not okay. I want to hear your theories.

Amir: I won't give you what you're after. You don't care.

Gamliel: We care. Our problem is most of what you've said until
now checked out. We've been very impressed with your honesty.
You're not a simpleton and what you've said so far, you
believed. Now we want to check out your new points.

Amir: I just can't.

Gamliel: You mean you don't want to because you don't know
anything. Why can't you tell? Is it because you know things
that can't be revealed or you're guessing based on logic, like
the bodyguards shouting, 'They're blanks.' You think that
doesn't bother us, too? It does, no doubt about it. I can
imagine how much it disturbs you. The question is if there is
something behind it. So far, you've been very open with us, now
we need hard facts from you.

Amir: I can't relate to that.

Gamliel: How...

Amir: I can't relate to it.

Gamliel: You can't relate?

Amir: Can't relate.

Gamliel: Because you're just theorizing.

Amir: Enough, enough.

Gamliel (laughing): No, it's not enough.

Gazit: You really do want to relate your theory to us.

Gamliel: It would be interesting to hear what you think.

Gazit: Suddenly, he's so mysterious.

***The cops are running out of rehearsed script and are
repeating themselves. Amir has so far correctly told about the
dead bodyguard, the frameup of the Kahalani brothers, the
reason the bodyguards shouted, 'Blanks,' the fact that Raviv
supplied the gun with the blanks, that the bodyguards cleared a
path for the fake killer and that the orders came from Peres.
That is an awful lot to know a month after the murder when it
took the rest of us a good year or two or more before all of
Amir's claims were proven true. If nothing else, we must ask
how Amir knew so much, so soon.***

Amir: All I can tell you is I don't say things for nothing.
Don't worry about that.

Gamliel: You're trying to get other people involved. Until now
this wasn't your line. So what changed your mind? What else is
behind this conspiracy of bodyguards and whoever else was in
it? We'll all leave here with a cleaner conscience if you can
prove a conspiracy, or you think there was one because of this
or that. Can you with a clean conscience attest to a
conspiracy? Don't hesitate if you can give me evidence I don't
have. Today they shut you up in court but you'll be home free
at your trial to say what you want. Now what do you want to
say?

Amir: I can't say.

Gazit: What do you mean you can't say?

Amir: I can't tell you.

Gamliel: You're just using logic, like in the Kahalani brothers
story. What you say makes some sense but they're a different
case. We're not going to investigate it for you. If you have
evidence related to your case, we will. So talk already.

Amir: Everything that you wrote down about Itamar Ben Gvir is nonsense.

Gamliel: That was your theory.

Amir: It was nonsense.

***Out of the blue, Amir retracts his story about Ben Gvir. The
retraction is too sudden for the interrogators not to suspect
the motive of this change of heart and they pursue it. In a
flash, Amir has decided that he has said too much already for
his own good.***

Gamliel: You just don't understand the legal process. If you
make a statement to the police and retract it, the court won't
take you at your word. You have to be consistent. It's for your
own good.

Amir: I didn't say it for my own good.

Gamliel: You're hurting your own cause.

Amir: I never said anything, nothing. Are you telling me that no
bodyguard is dead?

Gamliel: No.

Amir: Fine.

Gamliel: So go on as if there was no dead bodyguard.

Gazit: One of your investigators told you that?

Gamliel: Ask your lawyer. He's objective. If he tells me a
bodyguard is dead, I'll investigate.

Amir: So why are they saying so?

Gamliel: We just told you, there is definitely no dead
bodyguard. Does it matter to you that much?

Amir: What?

Gazit: That you're told there's no dead bodyguard.

*** But there was a dead Shabak agent, Yoav Kuriel, and Gamliel
and Gazit, as investigators responsible for the most important
crime in Israel's history, must have known it. Are they
splitting hairs?: Kuriel wasn't a Shabak bodyguard but a Shabak
agent. Or are they just lying to Amir? They may have suspected
that Kuriel's death was unrelated to Rabin's murder but it is
not their right to inform Amir that there was no dead bodyguard
when they knew there was. The motives of Gazit and Gamliel must
be considered suspect or why are they using unscrupulous
strategy to get Amir to name the sources of his
information.***

Gamliel: Yigal, it's your right to think but there's no motive
for your thoughts.

Amir: I never said anything, not a thing.

Gamliel: Then I can construe that your thinking is based on
theory not facts.

Amir: What was said here, wasn't.

Gazit: Itamar, the bodyguards, the high-level plot, nothing?

Amir: I explained there, oh, alright.

Gazit: Have we stopped then?

Amir: He asked what could have been and I answered.

Gazit: So you meant none of it. They were just crumbs of ideas.

Amir: Yes.

Gazit: This is hard to say, but we are at your service.

Amir: Yes.

Gazit: What you said in the courtroom is unconnected to what you
said here?

Amir: I can say more here.

***Earlier in the day Amir told the judge and reporters that he
never intended to kill Rabin. He is not prepared to tell Gazit
or Gamliel anything nearly as important and they are beginning
to see that their cause was hopeless. With them, Amir never
retracts his claim that he didn't even try to kill Rabin. This
obstacle was overcome when Amir was later instructed to explain
he never intended to kill Rabin, just cripple him. Meanwhile,
whatever Amir was prepared to tell Judge Arbel, he is not going
to tell the police.***

Gazit: Look how mysterious he's become so suddenly. I don't even
know you anymore. This morning I spoke with Ofri. He said he
was representing you. Do you even know who is your lawyer, the
one who changed your whole perspective? There's no connection
between these things at all.

Amir: Now I know what the connection is.

Gazit: I've sat with you before several times. You weren't like
this. I want to know why you're so different now. Why you've
suddenly become so mysterious. Is it just something that came
over you?

Amir: No?

Gazit: I'm not asking these questions for nothing. I consider
you reliable, now I can't understand you. I had no problem
with your story as long as you said you did it.

Amir: Yes.

Gazit: Now you're throwing out new things and we're obliged to
follow them up.

Amir: Even without me you should be doing it.

Gazit: What?

Amir: Your conclusions are unconnected to it all.

Gazit: No. You're saying these things in court and we have to
find out why. You throw out these things in court and I have
to find out from the media what you're claiming. You tell me
that one day you'll tell everything. I have to find out what
you mean by that. I don't even know what you mean by a facade.
Tell me simply.

Amir: (yawns)

Gazit: Are you tired?

Amir: (yawns)

Gazit: We can talk to you tomorrow if you want, but it would be
better to do some explaining now. You think you're the only
one without explanations? We can find explanations for
everything you think. If you've been just saying these things
for nothing, then tell us.

Gamliel: I have one question.

Amir: What time is it now?

Gamliel: Five thirty. When you want to eat, join us. Now you
told a story about a bus ride from your house to the rally on
the night of the murder where you met an acquaintance who told
you about Ben Gvir.

Amir: Truth and nothing but the truth.

Gamliel: Truth and nothing but the truth. That means you confirm
the story on the bus.

Amir: Yes.

Gamliel: Did you see him accidentally or do you always travel
together? That would mean he lives in Herzlia.

Amir: Raanana.

Gamliel: Raanana.

Amir: I didn't say anything.

Gazit: He already told me.

Gamliel: What did he say?

Gazit: It was a guy from Likud Youth In Raanana. He gave me his
name. What was it?

Amir: I don't want to give the name.

Gazit: You already told me.

Amir: Only the first name. I think it was Gilad, I'm not sure.

Gamliel: He must have known you or he wouldn't have brought up the
subject.

Gazit: He was a young boy.

Gamliel: Someone who knew you.

Gazit: You said Margalit knew him as well.

***Amir has already incriminated Margalit Har Shefi, as we shall
soon see. The police are building their own right wing
conspiracy and want as many people within it as possible. If
this Likud youth didn't report Ben Gvir's intentions to the
police, then he was as guilty as Har Shefi was of not
preventing the murder of Rabin. But unlike Har Shefi, Amir told
Officer Hirshorn that the youth did report Ben Gvir's plans to
the police. The policemen are most likely not trying to help
Amir's case but the government's for a right wing, religious
conspiracy. And Amir has caught on.***

Amir: Maybe I did. Listen, I don't want...

Gamliel: What don't you want?

Amir: that...

Gamliel: But you're saying this is the truth. This is what
happened on the bus.

Gazit: That means you happened to meet him and he just happened
to tell you this story.

Gamliel: If you won't give his name, at least tell exactly what
he said.

Amir: He heard that Itamar Ben Gvir wanted to kill Rabin at the
rally.

Gamliel: So what did you tell him?

Amir: Can't you find the bus driver who might have seen us
together?

Gamliel: Who was this youth?

Amir: (groans)

Gazit: Don't play games. We're trying to find people and you're
groaning.

Gamliel: Were you known to anyone else on the bus?

Gazit: I understood from you that you didn't see him again, that
you avoided him.

Amir: Yes.

Gamliel: Now explain logically why he told you the story and no
one else we can find.

Amir: I'm not saying anything to incriminate someone else.

Gamliel: What could you incriminate him on?

Amir: It doesn't matter.

Gamliel: Not true.

Amir: I've already turned the state upside down.

Gamliel: Not true. You haven't turned anything upside down.

***Amir uses the word "hafakhti" and I translated it turned
upside down. It also means to cause a revolution. Now does
Amir mean he turned the state upside down because he murdered
Rabin, or because he was blamed for the murder? Look at his
next line of thinking.***

Amir: They've investigated every rabbi in the country.

Gamliel: Don't exaggerate.

Amir: No exaggeration.

Gamliel: All in all we spoke to a very few rabbis, not what you
think.

Amir: The reign of terror against them has started. (Amir used
the Arabic word "alayhom" to describe terror).

Gamliel - Alayhom?

Amir: Yes.

***Amir has caught on to the whole plan; set up a religious
patsy for Rabin's murder and start a reign of repression
against the religious community and their rabbis. He knows that
is what the policemen are aiming for and he's testing them.
They do not fail him."

Gazit: Hagai told me specifically that you went to a certain
rabbi to get his blessings.

Amir: Not true.

Gazit: Ask Hagai if he said it.

Amir: What does Hagai know about this?

Gazit: You tell me.

Amir: No, I know the rabbis permitted it. I hear it on the
radio, read it in the papers. But I never went to a rabbi to
ask.

Gamliel: They said in their classes?

Amir: No. There was no need. The persecutor judgement was known.

Gamliel: You wanted verification.

Amir: Didn't need it. Rabin fell in the category.

Gamliel: And I understand you checked that out first.

Amir: Me?

Gamliel: Yes, you.

Amir: And that's how I arrived at my conclusion...

Gamliel: You arrived at your own conclusion. The question is if
you had help.

***Amir riled Gamliel and got his answer. He is out to prove
that the religious community and their rabbis murdered Rabin.
His only purpose in interrogating Amir was to get him to change
his testimony about a government conspiracy or to disprove it.
Amir was right from the beginning: all the interrogators were
interested in was wrapping up the government's version of
events. Amir plays along with his inquisitors as he was always
supposed to. He reverts to form and victimizes Har Shefi. It
isn't easy to understand Amir's sudden reversal of form, but
all talk of a government/Shabak conspiracy disappears and the
rabbis are now to blame. This is what he was supposed to say
all along and we can surmise that he knew these cops weren't
there to help him. He gave up telling the truth.***

Amir: No help but I was influenced.

Gazit: Not enough, be more specific. We understand from Hagai
that you went to a rabbi and you yourself said that Margalit
went to her rabbi in Bet El.

Amir: She wanted to. She didn't trust my judgement and said
she'd see her rabbi. I told her to ask him.

Gamliel: Did she get an answer?

Amir: She told me no.

Gamliel: What, no?

Amir: He put her off, didn't give a straight answer.

Gamliel: So you felt vindicated.

Amir: I told her to ask and she'd find out it wasn't forbidden.
She wanted to prove the opposite and I told her that he'd say
it was allowed.

Gamliel: But you got a less certain answer in the end.

Amir: Another rabbi would have said it's a blessing. I didn't
need to find one to know it.

***And now the Shabak agent Amir returns to form. That Amir was,
at least, a Shabak asset, has been testified to by thousands
of people who saw him at work with Avishai Raviv from the
autumn of 1992 on. Their job was to criminalize the religious
community and the Jews of Judea, Samaria and Gaza. The
government had promised the PLO their homes and in order to
assure that there would be no sympathy for their forced removal
from them, the Shabak's Jewish Department, initially headed by
Carmi Gillon, organized a campaign of sting operations against
them, culminating in the Rabin assassination. Amir's duty was
to smear the rabbis. Checking the timing carefully, not one
rabbi ever brought up the concepts of persecutor, or a death
judgement for tyrants until Amir arrived at their yeshivas and
raised the issues. Amir knows precisely what the plan is and is
now feeding the cops what they want to hear. They think they've
finally broken him. For the final five minutes of the
interrogation, the interrogators once again try to get Amir to
name names: which rabbi blessed his actions, who was the Likud
Youth on the bus, who told him about the dead bodyguard, until
Amir shouts,"Stop harassing me. This is like a Shabak
interrogation." Now how would he know that? Amir's crime was a
police matter, and though the Shabak oversaw the
interrogations, supposedly he was not questioned by the Shabak.
Apparently he was. That morning, Amir made a break for freedom.
He told the media and the judge at his hearing that he didn't
kill Rabin, in fact he never even tried to. When the judge
refused to hear him out, his fate was sealed. He tried to tell
the truth to the police and realized they had closed the book on
him. His best hope lay in cooperating with the Shabak. This
taped interrogation proves that Amir, up until Dec. 3/95, did
not confess to murdering Rabin and did try to expose the
conspiracy. It is a very different tape than the ones shown on
Israeli television of Amir confessing and showing no regret.

So it has been hidden from the public. But I'll show it
and two other tapes of Amir's police interrogations to any
group which invites me. The issue isn't justice for Rabin; it's
saving our nation from those still in power who murdered him.
They are murdering all of us now and must be stopped. They only
way to do so is through Rabin.

end

If anyone can help organize, finance or wishes to
participate in a rally opposite the office of Elyakim
Rubinstein, the state attorney-general, on November 4th to
demand the reopening of the Rabin murder investigation, please
contact me.

My book THE LAST DAYS OF ISRAEL is available through
www.amazon.com, www.bn.com, www.borders.com ,
www.booksamillion.com, www.hiddenmysteries.com The new e-mail
address for the 2nd edition of Who Murdered Yitzhak Rabin is
milt1@pop.gis.net The Hebrew and English editions are available
from the author as well. Please visit
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typing in chamish.

The toll free numbers to inquire about all books are:

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